And Now Folks, It's Time To Play "Choose Your Devil"!

[fragger]

Federal elections coming up next month, and once again it's the usual Hobson's choice between the devil you know and the other devil you know.

Hmm... Do I vote for the rich ba$t@rd with the reptilian smile and the Cayman Islands Tax Dodge account who wants to add my money to his for my own good, or do I go for the Friend Of The Working Stiff with the small man syndrome whose financially extravagant promises will be funded on the principal of "I'll figure it out somehow once I get elected, or better yet the voters will have forgotten what I promised by then so I won't have to bother"?

These characters really give me the right royals. Up they get, promising this and guaranteeing that, shaking hands with Average Joe with one hand while hurling sanctimonious mudballs at the opposition with the other. We have to put up with the sight of them donning smocks and overalls while they try their hand on the production line among the other process workers to show how closely they identify with Mr. Blue Collar (and of course the cameras don't show them subsequently stuffing up the production line and the factory staff then having to spend the rest of the afternoon cleaning up the mess). They get out and about meeting the public and pretending to listen to what that public has to say - something they would never think of doing once they're off the campaign trail. You can almost see them thinking "I hope this meet and greet session is over soon, it's getting close to cocktail time".

The exasperating part is that we all know they're full of it. They know that we know, and we know that they know that we know, but their hides are of sufficient thickness as to allow them to shamelessly go through the same tired old motions because that's what politicians do and they know we don't expect anything different from them. And it doesn't really matter which of the two major parties gets in - they're all besties anyway once all the posturing and vitriol-throwing is done, all platinum-card members of the same Good Old Boys Club. They'll all get together and congratulate each other on the originality of each others' zingers ('...As useless as a hat full of arseholes' - Good one, Bill! Mind if I use that in the next campaign?)

Well, I'll be doing what I almost always do on the day (since voting is compulsory in this country, I don't have a flipping choice). I'll save the government some graphite by pretending to tick off names on my voting sheet but then go and stuff it unblemished by any pencil marks into the ballet box. If they want my vote, they're gonna have to do more than just kiss babies, dribble out threadbare homilies and play air leadership.

[Art Blade]

Same old story, sadly.

NHS: National Health Service (England)
Leave Campaign or Brexit: referendum, Britain to leave the EU

Nigel Farage told Good Morning Britain it was a "mistake" for the Leave campaign to claim there'd be £350m a week extra for the NHS after Brexit .

Asked to guarantee that money would go to the NHS he said: "No, and I would never have made that claim. That was one of the mistakes that the Leave campaign made."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3-brexit-promises-campaigners-wriggled-8271762

[mandru]

I know I'm not the only one who is sick and tired of being given options on who to vote for in rigged elections where all of the candidates are so stinking bad that it always turns into a situation of "Who do I need to vote against?" instead of the far preferable "Who do I want to vote for?".  :-\\

I wish there was a "None Of The Above" option where all the bums were tossed out and actual good candidates selected to run.  Or really it would be best if good people were nominated from the very start.  :D

But then I guess in this day and age wanting the job kind of defines the power hungry as stinking bums.

[Binnatics]

Compulsory voting is the worse thing you can do to democracy; all the stupid will go voting  ::)

[fragger]

I'm in total agreement with you guys.

Exactly, Binn. The last Prime Minister was the Minister for Health when his party was previously in power, a department that he practically ran into the ground. So when he later ran for Prime Minister, he secured the stupid vote which then allowed him to run all the departments. Great.

Within a year, his popularity rating had plummeted to an all-time low. In fact I think he broke some kind of record for it. Those of us with at least a half a brain who knew that voting him in was like making Inspector Clouseau head of police were not greatly surprised.

Unfortunately, when the current government disappoints (as it almost always does), come election time people will vote for the other party in the naive belief that they might do better ::) It's like deciding which toe you want to stub, the left one or the right one. Naturally you don't want to stub either, but you have no choice.

I guess Americans are facing much the same quandary at present. I don't envy them their choice either, but at least they have the option of not voting, and they don't get penalised for it. In Oz, if you don't turn up at your polling station on the day to get your name ticked off, you get fined. But there's nothing to stop you turning up, getting crossed off and dropping an empty ballot form in the box, so what's the freaking point? It just means I have to go out when I don't feel like it, go to the polling place, get loaded up with numerous "How to vote for so-and-so" flyers thrust at me by party flunkies (the flyers then go straight into the nearest rubbish bin), slowly shuffle forward in a queue, get my name ticked off and handed my ballot form, and then go and pretend to vote. What a waste of time.

What I'd love to see is an election where nobody turns up. And then everybody refuses to pay the fine for not turning up. And what the pollies would then be able to do about it >:D

I'd be interested to find out how many blank ballot forms get lodged.

[PZ]

Personally, I think a person should need to prove that they know something about the politicians and issues being voted - a test or something along those lines.

For example, I saw on the news the other day a woman that was backing Hillary Clinton, and when asked why not consider Bernie Sanders she replied "Who's Bernie Sanders?" (he's the only other democratic contender at the time). This fool was backing Clinton only because Hillary came to her town and gave her a hug.  This idiot has the same voting level as the person that keeps up with all the issues. Don't get me wrong, I love democracy, and fully support the people electing the officials that run the country, but when it comes to purely a popularity contest with the ignorant having equal voting rights ... really? There is inherently something wrong with having children voting on how parents should parent.

[Art Blade]

good statement, your last line :-D

[fragger]

Yeah, good comments PZ :-X

I can't believe how easily some people can be swayed. Or rather I can, I see that sort of thing here too, but it still flabbergasts me.

Heck, even I know who Bernie Sanders is and what his stance on things is, and I live on the other side of the planet.

[Binnatics]

When I was a kid, I was a great fan of the referendum. I thought that was democracy in its purest form. Back then I was already unhappy with the decisions politicians made and wanted to have to vote for an issue instead for a representative.

Now I know it's democracy in its most fatal form. Look what those stupid old British have voted for... political chaos and demise. The politicians had the chance to stumble over each other telling one doom scenario over the other, making themselves even less credential, while the people started to think those doom scenarios were even faker. Now look what you've got; the wisdom has been outnumbered by the stupid and the sentimental. Poor Brits :-\\

We had such a referendum in Holland as well, about the European constitution. Same thing happened. The main political faces kept promoting something that was too complicated to understand, so they started saying dump things about it, making the chaos even worse. I voted pro, because of my belief in international conjunction. Our country voted against. Ppl were tired of smart a$$ politicians telling them what to do.

The Brexit is a sentimental one. Driven by nostalgia and electoral disappointment. It's the outcome of today's political freak-show.

[fragger]

I'm no expert on the EU but I think those who voted to leave the Union will have that decision come back to bite them.

Apparently a number of people voted "yes" (to leave the EU) as a kind of protest because they didn't believe that it would actually happen and they saw it as a way of putting the wind up the government. But because the unthinkable happened and the vote actually did come down on the "yes" side, these same people are now regretting their vote. Considering how very close the vote was, one wonders about the possibility that had these particular fools voted "no", the UK might still be in the Union.

Using such an important referendum in such a frivolous manner was a really stupid and petty act on the part of the protesters. There are other channels through which they could have made their grievances known. Maybe the vote would still have resulted in a "yes", but now that there's an all-too-possible chance that the country may suffer adverse consequences as a result of leaving the EU, these folks have to live with the knowledge that they helped to bring about those consequences, and all for the sake of basically having a tantrum ::)

[fragger]

Now I've heard it all... I just had a phone call from the "Christian Democratic Party" (yes) who started pitching some sort of electoral spiel at me.

Here's the thing - it was a recording. So after the first couple of sentences, I hung up. I don't know what kind of rosy harps-and-glory future they were going to promise to deliver should I give them my vote (I'm assuming they were fishing for votes) - I didn't listen that far. When it comes to making up my mind about electoral issues, recorded persuasions will sway me about as much as a rat's fart.

Here's a thought - maybe, just maybe, I might consider at least hearing them out, were they to speak to me in person. If they're going to get Robbie The Robot to do their bidding, they can jolly well go back to whatever Forbidden Planet they came from.

The very nerve

[Art Blade]

 ??? :D

[PZ]

Just yesterday someone called my phone - thankfully my wife picked up and screened the call. Turns out it was a local politician (that I've never heard of) that wanted to ask for a donation even though my wife told her that we did not know her name, nor her stance on the local issues.  Talk about dim-witted "I know you don't know anything about me, but do you want to donate to my campaign?"

[mandru]

Sorry to hear about that robo call fragger.  Beyond telemarketers being the closest thing to legalized scamming it really gets up my nose when anyone pretends to speak for an entire community.

PZ, I've had to stop answering calls who's caller ID I don't recognize.  Mrs mandru knows (should the need ever arise) our agreed on ring code if one of us need to call from an odd location.  Get the right number of rings, hang up, and then call back to get picked up.


The following is a continually evolving personal opinion but it's where I stand currently.

On the UK leaving the EU I do see things a bit differently from the other opinions stated here but have waited for the dust to settle a bit before commenting.

But first (as almost always  ;) ) one of my typical asides to attempt to qualify my point of view.

I have a modest back yard for which I pay a struggling friend who works as a yardman $25 twice a month to mow it for me.  I don't have space for a power mower and I like to think that I'm helping out someone who needs it.  Besides the lawn my yard doesn't have much going for it. I've pulled out all of the trees to keep the neighborhood kids from coming in over the surrounding six foot fence and climbing them. That also had the added benefit of saving me the task of raking up all those leaves every autumn though I still get a lot of blow over from the huge nearby cottonwoods when the seasonal winds pick up.

So when I find one of the families (from the surrounding apartment complexes) who have let themselves in through the front gate (for the heavy gear and furniture) setting up a BBQ with a constant stream of supplies and people going over the fence all while setting off fireworks in my backyard I do get pissy about it.  No knock on the door to ask "Can we?", it's boom I discover them setting up camp!

This isn't a hypothetical occurrence.  It has happened several times over the six years we've lived here.  It was fortunate on one occasion that my yard wasn't nearly long enough to tear up the lawn so they could set up a proper pits for tossing horseshoes or I would have to have broken out the baseball bat.

It's all a matter of basic human nature.  From household to household, community to community, country to country the core concepts of behavior, values, fair play and decency widely varies.  The bigger the circle the wider the swing of those values vary.

There was a recent national sensationalized news story of a teenager was caught (the race here does not matter crime is crime and dead is dead, though it has been made a big deal  ::) ) breaking and entering to burgle a house knowing the the residents were present.  The teen being confronted and apparently instead of turning and hustling his a$$ back out of there exhibited behavior that led to him being shot and killed,  Now the homeowners have been vilified.  I'm sorry but I have almost zero sympathy for the thief and a good deal of rage towards the weepy corpse's mother and her absolutely warped mindset that allowed her to cry plaintively to the news cameras "It was his job! How else was he supposed to get money for school?"  :D

Now imagine if the Local City, County, State, or Federal Governments made it (First) illegal for me to have a six foot fence and (Secondly) enacted laws that released my property to access it and use it as they see fit.  There's no way in hell I could tolerate a governing body outside of my country trying to tell me the same.  I vote against every local and national politician who's names come up on ballots that I can affect who is working towards One World ends.

That defines how I see the EU. 


It has only been recently that London has been able to rebuild itself to sustain Pre-WWII population levels and it wasn't that long ago that Germany not only has managed to rebuild itself from the cold war separation (which still stands fresh in my memory) but has successfully paid in full all of the punitive damage reclamation fines set on them through the post war courts all while managing to prosper individually and as a nation.

There are some countries as members of the EU who are crying for bail outs while defaulting on their loans to the rest of the EU members but these same poorly run countries are also at the same time some of the highest recipients of tourist revenue.  ???

Time and again here locally I've seen our taxes levied (raised) on the premise of better schools but that increased money rarely improves anything for the students.  It never gets to anything the students see.  It's far more likely that the highest level of administrative offices bring in interior designers to update their buildings and hiring additional personal staff.

I suspect that this is how those countries expecting bailouts are being governed and it is the responsibility of those countries' citizens to fire their leadership and bring in leaders other than those who promise more free stuff and fewer days in the w@&k week.  (Sadly we have too much of that going on here too)

It's not for an outside governing body like the EU to tap countries that are managing to prosper as if they were maple trees for syrup to give to poorly managed countries who will continue to piss it away and come back for more.  While I am all for blood drives and have often given a pint to fill a call for a specific need I have to question any moral position that would declare donations would henceforth become mandatory to assist a population that insists on cutting themselves.


There's a lot more I have against the EU even as a base concept.  I'll keep those thoughts to myself for now but tie back to my original backyard example above.

Refugees?  Families in need?  OK, I get that and want to assist those genuinely in need.

But a huge percentage of the refugees are single unaccompanied males who basically fled rather than fight to preserve their homelands for themselves and extended families or descendants.  Does anyone want to venture a guess at how much their hearts will be behind protecting the civic mores and ethical values of the communities or country of their new homes should they ever be called to do that?

What kind of outcome can be expected from a population being moved into and overwhelming good communities without being told they will be expected to conform to certain basic moral values of those communities or you'll either be in prison or on the next shipment back.  The absence of minimal proper screening for the Trojan Horse principal flowing in among them also concerns me greatly.

I've presented here a simple ABC of my thoughts on the British exit from a foreign tyranny that would strip out my six foot fence and criminalize any protest.

[fragger]

+1 Great post mandru :) As usual, you have provoked much thought. I can always count on you to add some perspectives that I hadn't considered. Cheers 8)

As I said, I'm not any kind of expert on the EU - in fact, I'll freely admit to not knowing much about it nor how it works. There have been too many other depths of things for me to try to plumb to keep me from getting around to the workings of the EU. I have become a bit of a student of the fickle impulsiveness of humans however, not just in view of some peoples' cavalier attitude to their Brexit vote, but also at present during election time in my own country.

Which is over btw, we did the business yesterday. And there has been an interesting result. It would seem that I'm not the only one whose back teeth have been fed up to with the major players. Over 20% of voters turned their backs on the two major parties this time, with the smaller parties and independents who usually don't stand much of a chance actually gaining some important seats. Hopefully this will give the big hitters some pause.

We don't actually know who won yet. The result between two said major parties was right down to the wire, so much so that it's looking like a hung parliament may result. Recountings are going ahead even as I write this, it's estimated that we won't know who really won for another week or so.

And I'm sure the country will hum along just fine in the meantime. It did the last time parliament hung, when nobody was effectively running the country for a whole month. Surprise surprise, the country didn't hit any icebergs and sink with no pollies at the helm.

[mmosu]

Congrats on surviving another election cycle fragger, I trust your blank ballot went down the chute smoothly  :-D :-X  Some do the same here, although there's not much point since you're actually allowed to not show up. Me, I'm perfectly willing to turn up and cast a vote for the opponent of everyone that I definitely DON'T want to see in office.
That being said, as our current election cycle really starts to heat up, I'm both reminded of the dishonorable mud-sling that was our last presidential election, and chilled by the realization that this next one will likely make the former look civil by comparison.  Truth be told I'm not emotionally recovered from the last one enough to be doing it again so soon  :D
Not much more for me to say that hasn't already been. The world's in a sad, pathetic state gentlemen, of that much we can be sure. Mandru, 1) excellent job and 2) get out of my head 

[Art Blade]

nice little post, mmosu, I like what you said and how you said it :)

[mmosu]

Thanks Art. If tomorrow everyone on earth suddenly woke up with half of your positivity and encouraging nature, I believe most of the world's problems would be solved right then and there  :-X

[Art Blade]

thanks, mmosu  ^-^ Actually, what you described is some sort of my real life's job description. Basically I am a troubleshooter, a problem-solver :-D

[Binnatics]

@ Mandru; You seem to have a lot of understanding for those saving their backyards from any type of profiteers coming from anywhere trying to get a piece of the pie.
I'm probably a bit too naive to agree with you, or way too progressive and purple.

If an African guy, elected by his family, packed with good faith, holy spirit and dollar bills, risks his life to cross the Mediterranean sea to later find himself, broke and stinking like an animal, on the beach selling plastic bracelets in Toscane, teasing young ladies into making their parents pay the extraordinary high price he tries to get for his rubbish knowing that he ought to send at least $50,- home on a monthly basis using Western Union (how ironic), I can't see him as a profiteer.
Knowing that there's thousands of these young, black men washing ashore on a weekly basis in the south of our European Union, I understand we have a problem. Not the annoyance of British tourists when they try to de-stress on that same Toscane beach and neither the Jungle in Calais causing a concentration of crime, anxiety, scabies and police attention but the fact that these young, healthy and intelligent people leave their homelands to live in the gutter of western society.
Closing borders, building walls and reducing co-operation is not the solution I would choose.

[mandru]

We can disagree.  I understood when I posted my comment above that it was a contrary voice.

For myself I speak from the opinion that everything is relative.

The introduction of my story about this insignificant (to anyone else) backyard comes from lifelong observations that beginning with the smallest measurable behavior of units of individual entities, units of force, or even subatomic particles for that matter have properties that always reflect and are directly manifested when bunches of them get together.  What occurs in the Micro is directly reflected and magnified within the Macro.

I used the narrative about my yard to reflect the behavior of a much larger population of a people who have come here (legally and illegally) and instead of respecting and adopting the cultural values are attempting to reshape the "Here" into the very conditions of the place they left.  The yards, lawns, and common areas of the surrounding apartment complexes when viewed through the street view of Google Earth are way more green and expansive than my little 20ft x 40ft bit of scrub.

For me in my point of view the burning irony is that the groups I've had to run off were openly stealing my privacy to obtain privacy for themselves.

This type of behavior is not something that has affected only me but is magnified as the entitlement mentality formed in larger groups (a number far larger than what will fit into my backyard) demanding that things be changed so that they can have it all their way is also happening the world over.   At least I can report that I've had no street blocking formal protests brought against me for being selfish.

I have to admit that I rejoiced when (it was quite a while back) fragger posted the Australian government's response of "No.  If you don't like our laws then GTFO!" to the demands from a large group of legal immigrants that they should be allowed to enact, practice, and enforce (within their communities and peoples) their own set of religious laws that in many case were completely contrary to the law of the land.


I don't know.  I have trouble with the absence of border enforcement and the reasonable expectation of meeting cultural norms.

If through unseen circumstances I were to someday actually manage to take a trip to a country within the European Union would I really want to have to respond to a question on my return of "Where did you go?" with something like "Sure the older buildings were still there but beyond that what difference does it make?"

But then I've lived where I am long enough to see the degrading effects of people fleeing the U.S.'s South Western most State because of cost of living due to rising taxes to fund a socialist agenda and resettling here and in return they bless us by dragging along their criminal element and completely skewing our local elections "to get free stuff" in a process us old timers call "The Cali-fornication of (enter your conservative State name here)".

[Binnatics]

We do disagree. But I understand you. I really understand your point of view and see the trouble people in the states, and in our European fort are facing.
If you take away all borders all that remains is anarchy. The strongest will remain. Current borders have been conquered by what used to be, and may still be the strongest alliance.
We Europeans are facing a world around us that is much less civilized than we are. Maybe the States have the same issue. People across the border don't have the power that we have. They do have spirit though, and numbers. They try to get in and have their piece of the pie. Will I let them have it? Will I fight to have them as far away as possible? Will I show them what a rotten piece of s#!t they try to get? Or will I share with certain conditions?

All I think is we should try to get closer to each other. Iron curtains and concrete walls don't do good to humanity.

[mmosu]

As long as we can all agree that there IS a problem, then we aren't that far off. It's those that are in denial of the world's issues that make themselves part of the problem. You can't even have a conversation with those types about possible solutions since they're unwilling to accept the starting premise.
Me personally, I am 100% of the opinion that no nation should have to fundamentally change itself in order to accommodate the desires of immigrants. Muslim ghettos under sharia law in Great Britain? Ridiculous. I can understand why someone from there might vote a certain way if they thought for one moment that it could help them regain control of their borders and culture.

[fragger]

I agree that there should be more understanding and tolerance between cultures, but these things are a two-way street. For some reason, Australians seem to be gaining a reputation overseas for being racists, which is unfair and shows, I think, a lack of understanding of the harsh geographical reality of Australia and the character of its people. I've posted elsewhere about how this largely barren land mass will not support a huge population and how we have to be careful about how many people we allow through our borders. But I'd like to add some comments about out national character and attitudes to immigration.

The position of most Australians is this: anyone is welcome to come here - legally - to live, as long as they respect our way of life. They don't have to adopt that way of life themselves, they don't even have to like it, but they have to respect it. We take issue when we hear Middle Eastern clerics and community leaders being not only openly critical of our way of life but downright insulting towards it - calling us godless infidels and decadent westerners and calling for jihads and the like. We take issue when practitioners of Sharia Law believe they have every right to place the laws of their own culture above our own, and act accordingly. There was a case here recently where an arranged marriage was planned between a 27-year-old Muslim man and a twelve-year-old girl. The authorities got wind of it and told those involved not to even think about it - marrying and/or having intercourse with a minor was a Federal Offense in this country and they would be severely penalised by law if they went ahead. They ignored the warning and went through with it, believing that Sharia Law was sacrosanct and took priority over Australian law. They were subsequently charged, as they were warned they would be, and are now doing time in prison (the 27-year-old got ten years).

The attitude of the Muslims involved was appallingly intolerant toward the people who were good enough to give them a new home. Look, Aussies don't mind what religion you follow, what God you want to pray to, or even what language you want to speak. But if you want to live here, you obey our laws and you respect our way of life. That is not negotiable. If those of the Islamic faith, or of any other religious or cultural persuasion, refuse to live by the laws of our land, then they shouldn't come here and they have no business being here. We have enough trouble with Aussies breaking the law - we don't need to import people from overseas who have even less regard for our laws than our own home-grown criminals do.

I'm also becoming concerned about the level of "Halalization" of this country. Vegemite. We all know what that is, and how iconically Australian it is. It's now being manufactured to be "Halal Certified", as is an increasing number of other iconic Aussie food brands. There are now "Halal-friendly" KFC outlets where you can't get a Bacon & Cheese Fillet Burger anymore, even if you're no more Islamic than St. Patrick. This is not tolerance - this is pandering. This is caving in to minority pressure for the sake of making an extra buck, and it's a dangerous road to go down. A true demonstration of tolerance would be for those who are followers of Islam to acknowledge that any food that they consider non-Halal is not for them and to stay away from it, not expect it to be changed to align with their belief system contrary to the wishes of the nation's majority. In the instance of Halal-certified foods, the fault really lies with the manufacturers and companies involved for not having the balls to tell the Islamic community to either like it or lump it.

Typical Aussies like myself have a kind of simple social philosophy based on the principle of "a fair go". This means that everybody has a right to fairness, be it judicial or cultural, and all deserve to be treated equally. A "fair go" applies to everyone, regardless of race or creed, rich or poor - locally-born or newly immigrant. Do right by us and we'll do right by you. Dish out intolerance to us and you can expect to have it served back to you. If that's a harsh stance, so be it. I don't think it's harsh, I think it's giving everyone a fair go, "us" as well as "them".

I would not be so naive or in such denial as to claim that there are no racists in this country - of course there are, just as there are in any country you care to visit. But we shouldn't be expected to cop abuse and intolerance from those we welcome in. It's quite simple - if anyone coming here wants to dish that stuff out, they can expect to have it shoved straight back down their throats. In short - we won't take crap from anybody. We'll welcome you here as long as you do right by us, otherwise you can go back where you came from. There are plenty of other asylum-seekers wanting to come here and we have the right, and by necessity the prudence, to pick and choose.

Racism and intolerance should not be confused with the desire to preserve one's own way of life from newly-arrived immigrants who would seek to undermine it, or try to change it to suit themselves, or attempt to enforce their own attitudes and beliefs upon those who are kind enough offer them succour. Nobody likes an ingrate.

[Art Blade]

fragger, all of the above that you posted sounds good, as in reasonable, to me. I think the whole world would w@&k perfectly well if we had those simple principles as common law. :-D