Joysticks

[fragger]

I don't think there's a topic dedicated to joysticks here - I looked around a bit but didn't see any. If there is, please forgive me if I've brought on a potential merge...

Anyway, I picked up a new one today, a Thrustmaster T.16000M, which has gotten a lot of great reviews. Normally retails in Oz for $79.99 AUD, I got it on special for $50. I got it because I was going through some stuff at home when I came across Wings of Prey, which I bought ages ago but couldn't play at the time because it didn't support my old Logitech joystick. I think I ended up getting into some other game and totally forgot I even had WoP ????

The new stick looks good (picture from net, can't be bothered setting up a photo shoot right now). It doesn't look anywhere near as professional as Thrustmaster's Warthog HOTAS, but it'll do.

[smg id=8704]

I would have rather gone for TM's full-on Warthog HOTAS system (stick and throttle) but I can't justify spending close to $300.00 for a top-of-the-line flight controller at this stage ??? The 16000 is impressive enough though, and it's still a Thrustmaster. Like the Warthog HOTAS it uses a magnetic sensor system so it has great responsiveness, and with no physical contacts to wear out via friction, it has long precision life (as with the Warthog, it utilises the H.E.A.R.T. Hall Effect Accurate Technology system). It has no dead zone at all and has a resolution of 16,000 x 16,000 values in X and Y axes (most sticks have around 1024 x 1024, and only TM's vaunted Warthog stick well and truly surpasses it with 65536 x 65536 values).  It has a hat controller on top for viewing (or anything else a program may allow you to set it up for) and 16 programmable buttons, where supported: 12 on the base and 4 on the stick. The base has a throttle slider and the stick can twist right and left for rudder control, if desired. The action of the stick is smooth and sure, with just the right amount of force required to move it, and has not one iota of looseness or imprecision. It feels solid and confidence-inspiring. I don't know about the throttle slider, it's oddly-placed and although the quality of its action is on a par with the stick, I think it might be awkward to use. I can probably ignore it and map a keyboard alternative, if the sim will let me (most do). The green area around the base of the stick lights up when the stick is moved from centre, and goes off again after three seconds in neutral. Whether that will get on my nerves or not I don't know - I may have to see if I can unofficially modify it a bit if it does... As mentioned earlier, there is no dead zone, which is what I want in a stick - no inaccuracy or jerkiness brought about by sudden dead zone edge take-up, just immediate responsiveness as soon as the stick is moved a whisker from centre, like a real one. I hate having to hunt for the response point. The whole unit can even be switched from its default right-handed mode to left-handed with a little bit of unscrewing/rescrewing of the included reversed hand and thumb rests and a "Left Handed<>Right Handed" switch under the base (no issue for me, I'm a rightie). The stick feels very comfortable for my hand, like it was made for it. Nice sturdy unit and the base has a good weight, with nice grippy things underneath so it won't slide around on my desktop. It's fully Plug and Play, drivers automatically install as soon as it's USB'd in for the first time. Comes with one-year warranty.

Wings of Prey fully supports the T.16000M - I checked before I bought. IL-2 Sturmovik apparently has no issue with this stick either, and yes, there's a reason I brought that up: Has anyone played it? It's currently for sale from Steam for ten bucks. I know one OWG member, B33 ENN, who has played it (according to Steam) but we haven't heard from him for quite a while. I know IL-2 has gotten many kudos over the years (it was originally released in 2000) and is considered one of the best WWII flight-sims ever, despite its now-dated graphics. I actually don't mind that - when it comes to flight sims I'm more interested in quality of flight modelling and playability than prettiness. IL-2 1946 builds onto the original Sturmovik title (included, natch). Steam's offering comes with a bunch of DLC and allows access to over 200 aircraft types, both Axis and Allied, so I'm quite interested in it. Looking through the customer reviews on Steam revealed not one single thumbs-down. Mind you, I didn't read all 794 reviews, but I did scroll down quite a long way through them without seeing any red thumbs.

I looked through the thread we have here about WoP and it's re-fired up my enthusiasm - I haven't simmed for years and I suddenly realised I've missed it. FC4's Buzzer and GTA V's aircraft are fun but they're not exactly sims :-() Some of what was reported in our thread about WoP put me off a little though. IL-2 Sturmovik may not be as graphically gorgeous as WoP, but from what I've read and looked at it appears to be more like my bowl of borscht - a more accessible affair that will happily let you just muck around with it as well as give you a serious simming experience, should that be your wont. Depending on my prevailing mindset, I sometimes like to approach a sim with the proper gravitas and take it seriously, but there are also times when I feel like just going on stupid with it. WoP sounds like it might be too serious to tolerate an attitude of cavalier mucking-aroundedness. I'll give WoP a go, but it's a bit too late at night right now to start installing and setting up stuff.

[Dweller_Benthos]

Back when I was playing Battlefield 1942 (yes, 15 years ago now - yikes) I had a joystick just for flying in that game. No idea what brand or type, but it was pretty decent. The only thing I didn't like on it was the throttle was a slider on the base, and you had to have two hands to use it that way. The more expensive ones had it mounted to the stick itself. I just put that throttle at 50% and used the keyboard controls to boost speed if I needed it. BF1942 didn't support the hat (forget the exact name, the little thing you move with your thumb to look around) so I had to use joy to key to map the hat to the mouse movement and it worked well enough. Haven't had it out in over a decade, probably up in the attic somewhere.

[PZ]

I haven't played a flying game since a WW2 one a few years ago - don't recall the name.  A joystick would have made it more fun, but I never did finish the game anyway.

[Binnatics]

The problem I would have with this joystick is the fact that it is right-hand based.

I checked the local hardwarstore and didn't find any left-handed joysticks for sale. Maybe they don't even exist.
My fingers kind of grew towards the buttons on my mouse and keyboard and I don't feel comfortable playing with anything else than that. The whole analog approach of movement controlls is interesting though, and the 16k x 16k precicion of that movement stick is quite impressive :o

[nexor]

[smg id=8705 type=preview align=center caption="Joystick"]
This is mine, a bit oldish but works fine, four buttons and the trigger on the stick,
six buttons on the base and a wheel which is the throttle and is very easy to use

[Art Blade]

fragger, no topic indeed but I found something of the early days here. And I still got that joystick ^-^
D_B, the joystick mentioned below got a throttle that can be separated from the joystick so you can "spread out" the stick and the throttle. :)

By the way, I use mouse, keyboard, and lately purchased a Thrustmaster "T.Fl!ght Hotas X" (hands on throttle and stick) with I think 10 buttons. The Joystick also has a switch for use with a PS3.

I can only recommend playing ArmA2 with a joystick... keyboard and mouse alone will not satisfy you when it comes to helis or planes... ;)

[fragger]

The problem I would have with this joystick is the fact that it is right-hand based.

You might have missed this bit in my post Binn:

The whole unit can even be switched from its default right-handed mode to left-handed with a little bit of unscrewing/rescrewing of the included reversed hand and thumb rests and a "Left Handed<>Right Handed" switch under the base

It sounds like a more complicated operation than it is, the way I described it. In reality, the process of switching it from right to left would only take a minute as there are only two screws involved. The left-handed thumb rest is included with the product. The default right thumb rest is removed by taking out one screw, then you use that same screw and screw hole the other way around to attach the left thumb rest (A snap on-off panel covers the screw and unused thumb rest socket when you're done and makes the stick handle flush). The hand rest at the stick's base only needs one screw loosened so it can be swivelled around to the other side of the stick, then re-tightened. Then the switch on the base can be set from "Right Handed" to "Left Handed" (this is for all the buttons, if you want them reversed as well. The buttons are all programmable anyway). As far as I know, the 16000 is the only joystick that is made for both left-handed and right-handed people :)

This is mine, a bit oldish but works fine, four buttons and the trigger on the stick, six buttons on the base and a wheel which is the throttle and is very easy to use

That's the very stick I have nex, the Logitech Attack 3 - the one that won't w@&k with Wings of Prey :-( It's an excellent stick, I've still got mine. I really wanted one with a hat controller on top for moving the view around though and the Thrustmaster brand is more widely supported in the gaming industry. I originally bought the Logitech for something else (can't remember what, not a flight sim) and always lamented the lack of a hat controller for any future flight simming I might have done. Otherwise I've been quite happy with it.

[fragger]

D_B, I also used to really enjoy BF1942 :-X I didn't have a joystick at the time though, so I didn't fly too often because I'd usually pile it up. The tanks were more fun anyway 8)

BF1942 didn't support the hat (forget the exact name, the little thing you move with your thumb to look around)

It is indeed called a hat, or sometimes a "POV hat" or a "hat switch" on gaming sticks (hats on real aircraft sticks are commonly used for elevator and aileron trim adjustment - they're obviously not used for looking around :-D). So called because when they first appeared on military aircraft flight sticks they were a flattish ribbed cone in shape, which resembled a Chinese "coolie hat", and moved around on a short stalk like a miniature joystick. A stick on a stick :-() Other uniquely shaped control buttons have names to describe their shapes, such as the "rook" (shaped like the top of a chess rook) and the "cup" (a shallow saucer shape that accepts the ball of the thumb and works like the mini-controller on old lappies, for moving a cursor around on a display screen. These are often found on the throttle grip). The buttons are made these unusual shapes so that pilots can clearly feel the different shapes through a gloved hand, and to facilitate grip on moveable buttons.

The hat on the T.16000M is actually a truncated cone shape, but still retains the "hat" moniker.

Here's a real stick from an F-16 Falcon:

[smg id=8706]

These are mounted on the right side in an F-16 cockpit, instead of in the centre like most other fighters (apparently you have to be right-handed to fly an F-16). You can see the silver hat near the top of the stick, and how it got its name (this particular shape is also known as the "nipple", surprise surprise :-()). You can also see the "rook" just below it, which is used for display management. You can see how the other buttons have distinctive shapes/colours/sizes.

[nexor]

Man, would I love to fly that   8)

[fragger]

Yeah, me too! Just look at the view:

[smg id=8707 align=center]

Canopy is all one piece and swings up to open, so unlike a sliding canopy there's no "canopy rail" where the sliding part meets the fixed part to get in your view. And because the stick is on the right, there is nothing in front of the instruments. Almost the entire aircraft is behind and below you, you're effectively right out on the nose, and the cockpit sills are only at elbow-height. It'd be like flying a cockpit in a bubble and nothing else 8)

If I could have one ride in any military jet fighter, it would be the F-16.

[Art Blade]

+1 :-X for all the tech stuff, fragger :)

[Dweller_Benthos]

Fragger, you might have done better flying in BF1942 if you had used a joystick. Night and day. It's like driving in GTA5, the analog nature of the gamepad for throttle and steering are much better suited over the full on/full off of the keyboard. Having said that, I wasn't very good at flying the jets in the Desert Combat (Conflict? Desert something) mod, but the WWII prop planes I was decent at, even flying under bridges and stuff.

[Binnatics]

 :-D

Must have skippe part of that long read. I checked the info my hardware vendor provided, which was apparently not saying anthing about left- right handedness. Other sticks have the same issue. I remember a 'toy' joystick I had as a kid that was also quite right handed which made it a very unpleasant experience....

Anyway, I'll stick to my KB+M setup for now ;)

[nexor]

I'm also left handed Binn, but lucky for me in a way, when I started my school career I was punished by my teachers for using my left hand, that is until my folks found out, my mother (she was left handed) almost took the teacher apart.
I can write with my right hand with difficulty but otherwise I use my right hand as often as my left. I'm about 80% ambidextrous.
Actually, I'm more comfortable using the mouse right handed than the left, and depending on the mood I use the joystick with either hand   :-D

[Binnatics]

I also learned to use the mouse with my right hand. First I switched position between keyboard and mouse (mat) when a mouse was part of a gaming control, but I stopped doing that when the mouse became the aiming device. Now I'm much better with my right hand controlling the mouse, than with my left ^-^

[mandru]

...I'm about 80% ambidextrous.

I kinda have the same thing going on but I lean towards the opposite side of that when doing a lot of things.  I'm maldextrous as in equally bad with both hands.  ;)

[Binnatics]

 

[nexor]

 

[nexor]

It is very handy, and I got a lot of practice while doing the alteration w@&k to the house.
specially using all kinds of hand and power tools when I did the kitchen, the two guys who helped me
would just look and shake their heads as I swop tools from one hand to the other and just continue working   8)

[Binnatics]

Heheh, rubb it in Nex ^-^ :-X

[nexor]

 >:D

[Art Blade]

I'm maldextrous as in equally bad with both hands.  ;)

Nice one mandru :-D

[PZ]

We must be brothers, mandru  :-()

[mandru]

 :o

Yeah.  My brother from another... Uh, motherboard. 

[PZ]

  :-X