Music Discussion

[RedRaven]

Saw this earlier and it could easily be the basis for a Stalker style game.

http://www.metallica.com/index.asp?item=601688


Good song too ;D

[JRD]

Good'ole Metallica doing what they do best... :-X :-X :-X

Love the drums... excellent song...

Yeah, I like that kind of stuff my mum used to call NOISE...  8) 8)

[Art Blade]

Oh that wasn't noise? And this is me thinking I was listening to fighter plane engines all the time.





<ducks for cover and sneaks away>  ;)

[mandru]

That was pretty amusing RedRaven.  :-X

[Art Blade]

Hey people, I've finally managed to transfer two songs from my old puter to this rig here (using an mp3 stick). So I'm actually about to upload two pieces that are completely my own doings, no prefab stuff, no auto-harmoniser, nothing but my own ideas.

The songs I'll upload in a minute are called "A little swinging" which is probably some 12 years old, genre is Jazz (at least that's where I'd put it) and I used Cubase as a sequencer, and audio recordings of real instruments that played a single note (wav files) which can be processed (transposed) and used as instruments for it. You could call those "samples" too. It was a mere fun play, nothing fancy, but just so you get an idea of what you could do with a PC.

The second one was created using MadTracker, the free program I already mentioned to mandru. It also uses samples, and VST plugins, along with some ways of manipulating sound, so you can make a piano sound like anything else, say a fancy synthesizer. It allows a lot of freedom creating stuff. So, ArtBladeHouse (genre House, or "pop music" hehe) is just another example of what you could do with your PC. Again, no prefabs, and nothing too fancy, just something I did during a single day having fun creating sounds.

Hope you have some fun listening.

[Art Blade]

Just wanted to add that the house tune is from this weekend, yesterday, so you definitely are the first people to hear it  ;)

[eor123]

Was looking for a video of JJ Grey and Mofro's "Lochloosa" and came across 11 year old Almira Fawn performing on stage with them and performing her rendition of "Lochloosa,"  in which she changes the words to "Appalachia."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7BLVYSbHY0

Watched a few more of her youtube videos. Her talent is actually kind of spooky -- "an old soul in a young person's body" as my wife observed.

...and she doesn't seem to get rattled by the technical difficulties that delay the start of her performance.

[Art Blade]

yes, no stage-fright whatsoever, and two instruments at the same time... old soul -- do those children actually have a childhood?

[mandru]

Hey people, I've finally managed to transfer two songs from my old puter to this rig here (using an mp3 stick). So I'm actually about to upload two pieces that are completely my own doings, no prefab stuff, no auto-harmoniser, nothing but my own ideas. ...

...  Hope you have some fun listening.

Sorry I've been so long responding on this Art.  I was headed out of town for a few days when I spotted you had posted these songs and had to wait until I got back and had a good time to to see what was there.

I enjoyed both pieces.  ArtBladeHouse (my favorite of the two) had a techno drive to it and I've always liked techno dance mixes over disco any day.

"A little swinging" as a fun little intimate club number is very nice also.  :-X

You're sharing these makes me think I need to break down, pool my pennies for the $112 and buy a copy of KarmaFx Synth Modular so I can get back to my w@&k in the Psycle sequencer suite I have been using if only to keep my mind busy and give me something to do so I'm not developing Alzheimer's and slipping off some day into the African desert North of Shwasana and being unable (unwilling?) to find my way back.

[Art Blade]

Thank you for your replying and for your kind words, mandru.

I was starting to worry a little because not even you said anything. I don't fear criticism, but nothing at all really is the worst that can happen ;D I'm glad you had some joy listening to those tunes. And by all means, do get back into making music. Please share with us what you can, if you can, because I think a lot of people have just no idea what is going on, what is on a musician's mind. I'll tell you a little for starters.

I fondly remember three useful comments from different people.

The first was, "don't pack everything (instruments) you have got into one song, it's making it too dense to recognise anything, and the good parts just vanish in the sea of sound" - Bluntly put: less is more.

The second was, "try to create some kind of a (lead) melody, something that sticks out, something recogniseable. Not just jam."

The third was (after listening to a song created by midi-instruments that came prefab with sound cards or presets from synthesizers), "you need to get rid of those plastic sounds. I can immediately tell which synth provided which instrument. Get some real recordings of instruments from the web or a CD, rip it yourself if you like, but it really shouldn't sound like any prefab stuff. Make it sound individual, if you use a computer or synths."

Thanks to computers, PCs these days, we can virtually make everything possible. It's not even necessary to be able to read or write notes, modern programs and how they display music remind more of an excel sheet than anything (there are classic note displays, too, of course, if you really want to do it the old-fashioned way). Today it's like what you see is what you hear, editing notes while they play, or step sequencing, placing notes with mouse or keyboard... everyone can do it. The results may not exactly sound like the next billboard hit, but it's the fun factor that counts. As long as you have fun, do it for yourself. If you show it to someone you trust, you might get useful comments.

What I learned over time was to experiment with sounds; to change, replace and tweak them until it became something different, something unique. And I tried to create some stuff with structure, a build-up, some changes somewhere in between... a process of learning which is also a progress in experimenting and creating, and above all, fun.

First I start with a simple rhythm, either bass drum or hi-hat, or both, to start getting into the groove. Then I add the first basic notes for a bass. Bass and Bassdrum. That's how I start getting ideas. Then I randomly add an instrument and start adding notes for it so a simple melody builds up. Usually I add some more percussions and tweak the bass line, then play around with the melody part. Then I get an idea of the sound, and exchange the instruments, like different bass, different instrument for the (lead) melody, change bassdrum sounds, change hi-hats, add some claps... then add something like a chorus. Remove some stuff that now makes things sound too thick, too complex. Good idea: Copy and paste a pattern or a track, keep that, and modify the copy of it. Play them and listen to the changes. Change sounds, modify instruments...

Get the picture? That is a process of hours, sometimes days. Good idea is to leave the song alone for a day or two, return to it, and your ears will be fresh and unbiased, which will often reveal stuff that is out of sync or disharmonious. Sometimes I discard the whole w@&k and start from scratch, sometimes I change it so much that it becomes something entirely different. That is the fun of creating music. Almost like playing Open World Games, do what you like, when you like, the way you like it :)

The swing tune is rather old, it is one of the first tunes I created using real instrument recordings (single notes, then processed and combined and transposed and over-dubbed...) and also trying to w@&k out lead melody parts and a chorus.

The House sound was created using real instrument recordings and synthesized sounds, all of which massively tweaked and worked over using stuff like LFO, filters, effects, delay, you name it. One of the most difficult things is to create a bass drum sound that has enough pressure to make it sound hard and powerful but synthetic in a way, you need to play a lot with the little buttons and sliders hehehe. That tune is also rather minimal in its structure and the use of different instruments is sparse. Something I find rather difficult to handle is not to start turning it into melodic funk or jazz, just reduce it so it is monotonous enough to still pass as House.

Well, that's about what I can tell you right away about those two tunes and about myself making music.

[PZ]

... I don't fear criticism, but nothing at all really is the worst that can happen ...

My goodness, I didn't even see your original post!  I guess the take home lesson is that even if nothing is said, that doesn't necessarily mean that no one wants to make a comment - some oldsters like me might have just missed it.

I downloaded and enjoyed the jazzy tunes quite a bit - one (ArtBladeSwing) reminds me of a CD that I love to listen to when relaxing with a glass of wine after w@&k - the CD is titled Big City Blues, and is a collection of various artists - definitely my favorite jazz CD.

Good job, my talented friend  :-X

[Art Blade]

waheyyyy  ;D Thanks a lot, my old friend  :)

[PZ]

Just goes to show you again that you never know what talent lies in the membership of our little group!  ;)

[mandru]

Thanks for the info Art.

Part of the reason I like the KarmaFx system is that it has a sampler that includes a Delta function.

When you've sampled a note or a sound many samplers treat it as a middle C so when you play that note back but raised one octave it cuts the duration of the sampled note by 50% or if played an octave lower it doubles the duration of the note which creates an unrealistic feel.

The Delta function I mentioned allows you to set a standard of how long a note is supposed to ring with out regard to how high or low it has been pitch shifted.

Sorry to worry you with the slow reply, you posted (and I spotted) your songs the morning we were headed out to spend a couple days at a hotel and casino that is a two hour drive from where we live across the state line into Nevada so I marked the thread as unread so I could find it again and waited till I got back so I could have time to listen to them without rushing.

I may have to ask for tips to setting up a folder for my one song that's up on the boards and some of the others once I get around to posting more of my songs to keep them in one place but I'll get to that later.  ;D

[Art Blade]

Don't worry about late replies, I was merely saying YOU WORRIED ME but that's all.  ;D We'll get your folders sorted, mate, when you need it just give us a shout  ;D

[mandru]

Cool!  :)  Thanks again Art

[Art Blade]

welcome :) By the way, that delta thingy "sounds" really cool, I know exactly what you mean. The lack of time-streching and pitch control functions most programs present us with is indeed annoying. What you can do about it is use recordings of different notes, ie C3, G3, C4, G4 etc so the sound will stay authentic enough.

[mandru]

Art, I've posted my composition "Thorns In the Garden of Stone" in the downloads.

As noted above this song uses the sampler in the KarmaFX suite that has the Delta function to control duration of pitch changed notes. The effected note in this case is a middle C sampled from a decent grand piano.

Because I haven't practiced my download skills and kept them sharp I can't say click "Here" so I'll point to the conveniently placed link below.  :-[

Apparently, the song titles are now clickable ;)

I've also uploaded a short song "Sparring with Shadows" from my Drawn day works that I'm kind of fond of.

Moving in a different direction the link below is for my song "Point of Impact" with which I almost drove my neighbors crazy with during the couple weeks I was working on it because I'd crank my sound system to its limits so I could stand on the front porch and have a cigarette and still hear the details. I like it loud.  :P


I should note that the songs on my Drawn Day collection were intended more as sound tracking and mood-scapes than as anything I'd try to put forward as a box top hits type songs.  The Drawn Day album (an archaic word?) was intended to be a audio visualization walk through of the moods encountered in a typical day so I'll spare you the pieces that were crafted to express the doldrums of things like the long drive home.  ;D

[Art Blade]

mandru, check your post again... song titles are now clickable  :)

"Thorns In the Garden of Stone" put a smile on my face. Nice arrangement, the GP (lol, Grand Piano) isn't bad at all, if it really was only a single note recording being used. Impressive what you can get out of it, then :) The song reminded me of film music; a little of the original "The Fog" by John Carpenter. A dream-like atmosphere you created there, nice  :-X

"Sparring with Shadows" instantly reminded me of our discussion back in this topic when we were talking about those old step sequencers and modular sequencers. The song has got a funny (nice) touch of old-school analog synths, yet also some sound-FX white noise elements and I recognise different classic synth wave forms (ie sawtooth). The filters you used like ranging from low to high pass and the ongoing change in modulation was fun to listen to. I believe you'd like to have a drum synth or drum recordings to experiment with, like different drum kit recordings, I think the drum kits you used were kind of "default" or preset, in that particular recording. The song appears to me like something you see when you are on a train, passing a town... a momentarily situation in progress, without intro or extro. It was fun to get that glance at you experimenting with sound and melody :)

Those drums in "Point of Impact" were different, I liked those (and the rhythm, almost like a medieval dance), your synth drums reminded me of a blend of toms. Hehe, good one, that :) The synth with a heavy distortion to it is interesting because it contrasts the mellow melody, and I had to listen to it a couple of times in a row, I see why you'd like to play it loud and drive the neighbours crazy with that  ;D

Thanks for sharing those tunes mate, I am looking forward to listening to more  :-X

In general I like it when we are given the opportunity to examine and enjoy the works of an artist and on top have a chat with him/her about their w@&k.

Well, I'm going to play those tunes a couple of times more, they are currently playing in a loop and in the taskbar I see "...aka mandru" :)

[mandru]

Thanks for the help with the links there Art and the feedback.

Drums are admittedly a weak point for me. Outside of the 4/4 or 3/4 structure of the standard music notation I struggle with more complex rhythms.

I do have a good sample disc of drums that were recorded and released by Mick Fleetwood through Acid Loops which was used in "Thorns".  In that example I selected from Mick's single strike samples but obviously my skills in composing drum lines don't even scratch the surface of the potential of Mick's samples.  ;)

[Art Blade]

I'm not sure, but I think that you're creating the drum parts either early if not right away, and keep them easy without working them over later, or add them rather late because "something is missing, they expect me to add some drums." If you find it difficult to create a wicked rhythm, try adding echo (reverb) to single percussive parts such as a closed high hat (CHH) and use a non-4/4 measure for it, like 6/8 or even better 5/4 measures. If the reverb creates a rhythm that breakes up the 4/4 rhythm, then it will warp through the song (doesn't repeat exactly after one bar but say 6 or more bars, make the measure or reverb time odd so it takes longer) and create a drive you can't really make out where it comes from, yet it will add a groove you're probably looking for.

Another way of supporting a rhythm could be by creating a stereoscopic panning of a single instrument that goes left-centre-right and reverse, looped. Simple, really, but makes a difference if you don't want to add anything else.

I'd then try to break that monotonous rhythm by either removing single notes or adding some on an off-beat basis. Don't overdo it or it will sound chaotic and destroy a rhythm, but you'll need to listen to it and decide where something needs emphasis or reduction, add or remove as you hear fit.

When you listen to the tunes I uploaded, you'll notice that the jazz tune has the snare drum do variations all over the place, no bar is alike. The house tune's lead melody (second synth that sounds more like a distorted sawtooth), the synthesizer plays some sort of staccato and is octave-jumping, it is programmed to use different measures. Also in the house tune there is a stereo panning for a phaser- and flanger-like sound effect I manipulated a high hat with, it uses the rhythm delay trick with a 6-click echo. You'll notice when you get to the more silent part when the second (wah-) bass kicks in. Also, the house tune actually is comprised of two identical parts, the second part takes with it the not stopped synthesizer which is on a warped trip due to the off-beat measure; makes it sound like a bridge. Listen to it again and see if you recognise it :)

[mandru]

Thanks for the tips Art.  I'll definitely need to try some of the things you've suggested in future works.

I've spent most of the last twenty years as a bassist trying to get further away from the drums but it seems that I always end up stuck right next to them.  Usually I'm jammed in so close that if I move wrong checking my amp I end up hitting a crash cymbal with my bass.  Because of that I think I have a mental block when it comes to drums.  ;)

That twenty years has been under the same band leader.  During that time we've probably gone through twelve drummers and for some reason the band leader has gotten it in his head that I know something about drums.  Maybe it's because I'm standing where he's told me to stand and by way of my always being the closest to the drummer it has caused me to soak it up through osmosis.

It's become a running joke for me whenever we are breaking in a new drummer the band leader invariably turns to me and says "Help him out."

I always come back with "He's quitting already? Oh well, where's he parked and what should I grab first?"

[Art Blade]

hahaha  ;D Although I was thinking about programming drums, I can relate. At least I played drums myself a little, enough to understand basic priciples, but programming drums rids you of physical limitations and allows for rediculously complex arrangements probably no drummer alone could perform. I sometimes use different drum kits simultaneously which, in your case, requires at least two or more drummers. You'd be waving good-bye to more drummers than you shook hands with saying "hello and welcome aboard"  ;D

[fragger]

Hehehe

I'm no muso, but my Dad is (keyboards, terrific). He refers to drummers as "Musician's Labourers" ;D

On the subject of frenetic drummers, I always admired Carl Palmer from Emerson, Lake and Palmer. I think he's actually a mutant with a third arm growing out of his back and some extra drums hidden behind him. Some of what he did sounded impossible, except that I've actually seen him do it 8)

[Art Blade]

Hey people, a long youtube journey led me to something I want to share with you.

Matt Savage

Don't stop just because you'll see a boy on the piano.. he's a savant, a music (piano) prodigy -- basically a savant is someone with a dysfunctional brain (autistic person) that on one hand handicaps him in "normal" situations (like average day life) but on the other hand makes him a genius in a specific field, performing like a master with a long training. This little fellow is really worth watching.. and listening to. I'm really considering buying CDs by that guy :)

If you want to see a small docu about him first, take a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o7RBjrkb0A

This is jazz. Enjoy :)

The Matt Savage Trio plays Matt's original composition, "El Fuego"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aXZkFRVdzI

Matt Savage Trio - Infected with Hemiola
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X57yM6S1bRQ

Matt Savage plays "Blues in 33/8" in New York
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGD1gl0YtfM

The Matt Savage Trio plays Matt's original composition, "A 6/4 Song"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cubHlq0I_uw